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Home: Video University Forums: Wedding & Event Videography:
Scary....

X-Joel_Peregrine
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Apr 27, 2003, 5:08 PM

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Scary....	Can't Post

Hi all,
I don't mean to sound too harsh, but I've got to tell someone what I saw last night. I was shooting a reception in a building that had many different halls. As always I went to the other events and stuck my head in the door to see what was going on. In one hall the videographer had the a very odd looking set-up. There were two guys with XL-1's, one handheld and one on a tripod at the corner of the dance floor. Nothing odd about that. It was the garter/bouquet stuff happening. Next to the guy with the tripod was a stand with a bar going across it and two HUGE lights on each side. These types of lights are sold at hardware stores for construction. It looked like there were 500w bulbs in each light. Am I the only one that thinks this is really intrusive? How many people go home saying 'I never want a videographer at my wedding - did you see those lights??!!' I can see how you want the best quality - and you definately don't want your demo to look dark, but jeez - do you think these guys tell the couples they meet with that there will be huge lights on the dance floor? And both cameras had lights too! Don't take this the wrong way if this sounds like something you do - but maybe think again about how you light the reception. We as a group need to be a little more considerate toward the guests and not think so much about what the gain setting is in our cameras. There has to be a better balance, don't you think?
Joel

X-Ed_Kinnear
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Apr 27, 2003, 5:44 PM

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Re: Scary....	Can't Post

I agree with you Joel. Just another reason more and more brides are turning away from video.
And more and more churches are telling videographers no more roaming around the church, no wireless mics,the list keeps growing as more and more inexperienced videographers with a camera and a computer get into this business for "some extra money".
And yes I know..........go ahead and flame me......but if the shoe fits...........................

: Hi all,
: I don't mean to sound too harsh, but I've got to tell someone what I saw last night. I was shooting a reception in a building that had many different halls. As always I went to the other events and stuck my head in the door to see what was going on. In one hall the videographer had the a very odd looking set-up. There were two guys with XL-1's, one handheld and one on a tripod at the corner of the dance floor. Nothing odd about that. It was the garter/bouquet stuff happening. Next to the guy with the tripod was a stand with a bar going across it and two HUGE lights on each side. These types of lights are sold at hardware stores for construction. It looked like there were 500w bulbs in each light. Am I the only one that thinks this is really intrusive? How many people go home saying 'I never want a videographer at my wedding - did you see those lights??!!' I can see how you want the best quality - and you definately don't want your demo to look dark, but jeez - do you think these guys tell the couples they meet with that there will be huge lights on the dance floor? And both cameras had lights too! Don't take this the wrong way if this sounds like something you do - but maybe think again about how you light the reception. We as a group need to be a little more considerate toward the guests and not think so much about what the gain setting is in our cameras. There has to be a better balance, don't you think?
: Joel

X-Colvin_Eccleston
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Apr 27, 2003, 5:57 PM

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Re: Scary.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Little wonder that people come in without much idea. All the video mags in the UK this month have run stories along the lines of "So you've bought a camcorder? Why not shoot weddings with it?"

X-DGates
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Apr 27, 2003, 6:31 PM

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Re: Scary.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

What a joke.
That's probably the question I get most often, "Is your light on all the time?".
Videographers have to realize that referrals not only come from your demo tape, but from people watching you at someone else's wedding.
Dirk
: Hi all,
: I don't mean to sound too harsh, but I've got to tell someone what I saw last night. I was shooting a reception in a building that had many different halls. As always I went to the other events and stuck my head in the door to see what was going on. In one hall the videographer had the a very odd looking set-up. There were two guys with XL-1's, one handheld and one on a tripod at the corner of the dance floor. Nothing odd about that. It was the garter/bouquet stuff happening. Next to the guy with the tripod was a stand with a bar going across it and two HUGE lights on each side. These types of lights are sold at hardware stores for construction. It looked like there were 500w bulbs in each light. Am I the only one that thinks this is really intrusive? How many people go home saying 'I never want a videographer at my wedding - did you see those lights??!!' I can see how you want the best quality - and you definately don't want your demo to look dark, but jeez - do you think these guys tell the couples they meet with that there will be huge lights on the dance floor? And both cameras had lights too! Don't take this the wrong way if this sounds like something you do - but maybe think again about how you light the reception. We as a group need to be a little more considerate toward the guests and not think so much about what the gain setting is in our cameras. There has to be a better balance, don't you think?
: Joel

X-Jenn_M
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Apr 27, 2003, 9:02 PM

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Re: Scary.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree - this is unfortunate. In fact, it's impacted us directly on more than one occasion. We were told, by more than one couple, that a certain reception hall in our area told them NOT to hire a videographer b/c we ruin the ambiance, the scene they are trying to set... etc. This pissed me off, frankly b/c they did NOT do their research and based their opinion - the hall, I mean - on the performance of one videographer specifically in the area who uses pole lights - 2 on each side of the dance floor AND an old Panasonic 456, which he loves to shove in guest's faces - we've seen his work.
We've worked at this hall several times and never have they been polite or helpful to us. Oh, they go out of their way to coordinate with the photographer, but they are downright rude to us. One time, the host would not tell us which room the bridal party was waiting in. "They'll be out soon," was all he said. I followed the photographer to find them. He knew - the host told him. A-holes. Sorry, but it ticked me off. They've made it clear they do not like video.
This place is an old bank converted into a hall. What if I told couples, "Oh, you don't want to have your reception there - it's big and drafty, old and dark. And it's downtown -there's nowhere to park..." None of this is true, but what if I generalized and convinced couple of this. I'm sure that hall would have a huge problem with me.
I've considered calling them and discussing what couples have told us, informing them that not everyone uses the pole-light approach, etc, but as I've said, they have never been helpful before so I can't imagine they will be now. Maybe I'll try, if I get the fuel to move on it.
Thanks
-Jenn

X-Camille
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Apr 27, 2003, 9:10 PM

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When do you turn the lights on? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree! It is too bad that some feel that is necessary. What parts of the reception do you turn the lights on? I was all for the natural settings without bringing in additional lighting until we did an outdoor wedding. They cut the cake after the sun had set and the natural lighting was minimal. We decided to purchase an on camera light where the brightness can be adjusted and only turn it on when absolutely necessary.
Besides, when you turn the light on and shine it at the guests, they are aware you are filming and stop acting natural. Sometimes they will do goofy faces, look away from the camera in shyness, etc.

X-Joel_Peregrine
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Apr 27, 2003, 9:18 PM

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Re: When do you turn the lights on? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Camille,
I use a 10/20 watt on camera light during entrances, toasts, special dances and fast dances. One trick I use is to take the light off the camera and hold it over your head as high as you can. You then operate the camera with one hand. This is only done when the camera stays wide angle. It takes some practice but keeps the light out of people's eyes. You can also hold on to the handle of the camera and drop it down very low and hold the light above your head for dramatic fast dancing shots. Occasionally I also use a 50w light on a 13' stand that is operated by remote control. I set this up when the band has no lights and the house lights are very low. It's up so high that no one really notices it's there. I just reach into my pocket and turn it on when I need it. The remote switch is available at Radio shack.
Joel

: I agree! It is too bad that some feel that is necessary. What parts of the reception do you turn the lights on? I was all for the natural settings without bringing in additional lighting until we did an outdoor wedding. They cut the cake after the sun had set and the natural lighting was minimal. We decided to purchase an on camera light where the brightness can be adjusted and only turn it on when absolutely necessary.
: Besides, when you turn the light on and shine it at the guests, they are aware you are filming and stop acting natural. Sometimes they will do goofy faces, look away from the camera in shyness, etc.

X-Jenn_M
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Apr 27, 2003, 11:05 PM

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Re: shooting from above [In reply to]	Can't Post

Similar to what Joel said, we use an on-camera adjustable though we keep it attached. We use it for toasts, special dances, interviews, etc. - pretty much the entire (indoor) reception and also under a tent for fill light. Often we point it up so it isn't hitting the subject directly in the face. Most reception halls do not allow for too much bounced light, as the ceilings are too high and we can't always tip it as much as we'd like to.
Also, we shoot much of our fast/slow dancing shots of the crowd from up on a step stool. We find a little nook and tuck ourselves into it, get up on the stool and shoot with the light on - people don't even notice us or the light b/c it's like an overhead lamp, dim, kind of like the kind that reception halls use for ambient lighting. The guests have to physically look up to see us, and typically they are too occupied to do that.
The other benefit of the stool is that we can get a wider scope of the crowd, by shooting over people's heads and capturing activity in the center of a crowded dance floor without being instrusive.
Thanks
-Jenn
PS I've tried to make a positive out of the light whenever possible. If ever someone loses an earring or the bridesmaids are trying to do up the bussle in a dimly lit room, etc., I hussle right over and turn on that light. Suddenly, guests are much more appreciative of it.

X-Joel_Peregrine
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Apr 27, 2003, 11:58 PM

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Re: shooting from above [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Jenn,
I'm sure this has happened to you too: some photographers actually like having you around because they use your light for focusing....
Joel

: Similar to what Joel said, we use an on-camera adjustable though we keep it attached. We use it for toasts, special dances, interviews, etc. - pretty much the entire (indoor) reception and also under a tent for fill light. Often we point it up so it isn't hitting the subject directly in the face. Most reception halls do not allow for too much bounced light, as the ceilings are too high and we can't always tip it as much as we'd like to.
: Also, we shoot much of our fast/slow dancing shots of the crowd from up on a step stool. We find a little nook and tuck ourselves into it, get up on the stool and shoot with the light on - people don't even notice us or the light b/c it's like an overhead lamp, dim, kind of like the kind that reception halls use for ambient lighting. The guests have to physically look up to see us, and typically they are too occupied to do that.
: The other benefit of the stool is that we can get a wider scope of the crowd, by shooting over people's heads and capturing activity in the center of a crowded dance floor without being instrusive.
: Thanks
: -Jenn
: PS I've tried to make a positive out of the light whenever possible. If ever someone loses an earring or the bridesmaids are trying to do up the bussle in a dimly lit room, etc., I hussle right over and turn on that light. Suddenly, guests are much more appreciative of it.

X-Jenn_M
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Apr 28, 2003, 12:10 AM

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Re: shooting from above [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yup, and I LOVE working with those guys, and gals. They are the pros on our "recommended vendors" list for sure. Also, that's how I know the other ones are full of CRAP when they tell me that our lights are "affecting their exposure", etc. I know enough to realize they are just being control freaks and trying to dupe me. I've had some of the "top dogs" say that very thing - our lights help them focus. :o)
Thanks
-Jenn

: Hi Jenn,
: I'm sure this has happened to you too: some photographers actually like having you around because they use your light for focusing....
: Joel

: : Similar to what Joel said, we use an on-camera adjustable though we keep it attached. We use it for toasts, special dances, interviews, etc. - pretty much the entire (indoor) reception and also under a tent for fill light. Often we point it up so it isn't hitting the subject directly in the face. Most reception halls do not allow for too much bounced light, as the ceilings are too high and we can't always tip it as much as we'd like to.
: : Also, we shoot much of our fast/slow dancing shots of the crowd from up on a step stool. We find a little nook and tuck ourselves into it, get up on the stool and shoot with the light on - people don't even notice us or the light b/c it's like an overhead lamp, dim, kind of like the kind that reception halls use for ambient lighting. The guests have to physically look up to see us, and typically they are too occupied to do that.
: : The other benefit of the stool is that we can get a wider scope of the crowd, by shooting over people's heads and capturing activity in the center of a crowded dance floor without being instrusive.
: : Thanks
: : -Jenn
: : PS I've tried to make a positive out of the light whenever possible. If ever someone loses an earring or the bridesmaids are trying to do up the bussle in a dimly lit room, etc., I hussle right over and turn on that light. Suddenly, guests are much more appreciative of it.

X-Mike_S
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Apr 28, 2003, 4:29 AM

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Re: When do you turn the lights on? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not only does it help them to focus but we have a couple of photographers who love to use our light from the opposite side to make a beautiful backlit picture of the bride and groom's first dance.
Mike S

X-Brian_M
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Apr 28, 2003, 6:21 AM

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Re: Scary.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's unfortunate that we can't convince other videographers to tone it down a little with both their lights and their shooting technique of being up peoples noses. There's one guy who kneels on the steps of the alter at the couples feet during the vows. I can always tell when an officiant has had it with videographers when meeting with him/her prior to the wedding to talk about setting up.
It also doesn't help when reception halls (like Jenn mentioned) and photographers make negative comments to potential brides either. One photographer came up to our booth at a bridal show while a bride and her mom were talking to us and said "There's the Moaks with all their bright lights in my face" I wanted to kick his a$$ and knock his bad rug and bow tie off (no offence if this is anyone's "look"). We use on-camera adjustable lights and have never had anyone complain about our lights at the reception. We've received a couple facial reactions when people finally spotted us and realized they were being filmed but it wasn't the lights bothering them.
Some videographers still have older 1-chip SVHS cameras and will never replace them because the shoot 4 or 5 weddings per day with assistants and profitable for them not to have to ever upgrade. They are the videographers using excessive lighting and amateur shooting styles and really make us have to explain ourselves to brides and halls every year!
Brian M
Video by Moak

X-Dave_L
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Apr 28, 2003, 6:32 AM

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Brian: what kind of "on-camera adjustable light" do you use? I'm using the Sony 10/20 watt light, usually on 10 watts setting only, but it still feels a little too intrusive for my tastes ...

: It's unfortunate that we can't convince other videographers to tone it down a little with both their lights and their shooting technique of being up peoples noses. There's one guy who kneels on the steps of the alter at the couples feet during the vows. I can always tell when an officiant has had it with videographers when meeting with him/her prior to the wedding to talk about setting up.
: It also doesn't help when reception halls (like Jenn mentioned) and photographers make negative comments to potential brides either. One photographer came up to our booth at a bridal show while a bride and her mom were talking to us and said "There's the Moaks with all their bright lights in my face" I wanted to kick his a$$ and knock his bad rug and bow tie off (no offence if this is anyone's "look"). We use on-camera adjustable lights and have never had anyone complain about our lights at the reception. We've received a couple facial reactions when people finally spotted us and realized they were being filmed but it wasn't the lights bothering them.
: Some videographers still have older 1-chip SVHS cameras and will never replace them because the shoot 4 or 5 weddings per day with assistants and profitable for them not to have to ever upgrade. They are the videographers using excessive lighting and amateur shooting styles and really make us have to explain ourselves to brides and halls every year!
: Brian M
: Video by Moak

X-Monte_Pix
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Apr 28, 2003, 8:08 AM

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Well, I have to be the odd person out here. I have used "stand" lights on three occasions over the past 18 months. At each time, it was to "light" the ceremony. Reasons - some ceremonies last longer than my NRG battery belt, the cameras are futher away from the subject, the lights can be placed to be the most effective and least intrusive. On one occasion, the lights stayed up for the reception (in the same hall as the ceremony) at the request of the bride and reception manager (they thought it made the place more interesting and the buffet tables looked better).
One of my "lit" ceremonies was in a restaurant and the bride had decided to have the ceremony at the top of some stairs. Unfortunately, there was absolutely no light up there. So I placed a couple of stand lights behind some objects and lit the scene. Video turned out great - and the audience could see the ceremony as well. I another "lit" ceremony, the bride was entering down a dramatic staircase to a ceremony in a dimly lit hall. I lit the stairs and the ceremony area.
All this said, most of my reception lighting is with on-camera Varalux's. These lights can vary from 10-100W. I add a diffuser for indoors and rarely go above 50W. Photogs do like them for focussing.

X-Philip_Hinkle
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Apr 28, 2003, 9:26 AM

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: We as a group need to be a little more considerate toward the guests and not think so much about what the gain setting is in our cameras. There has to be a better balance, don't you think?
As I meet with couples I tell them lighting is a problem especially at receptions. I remind them that if they can get the reception hall to crank the lights up just a tiny amount more than normal it will improve the video without really affecting the mood. I also off to use an on-camera light for the first dance only if they agree to it. I tell them I don't want to stick out too much but I want to get the best video I can for their money. When doing guest interviews I will use the on camera light so you can see the faces but I always tell the guest when I am about to turn it on. I don't want to extra lighting except when necessary and then I always get their permission first.

X-Gary_Cox
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Apr 28, 2003, 9:52 AM

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My feelings is that you must find a happy median... For weddings I require that some house lights be turned on as we've all seen weddings where the only lights are the candles! When they see the video the only thing that they are going to see is how bad it looks because they can't see anything due to low lighting and wonder why they paid $1,000 for the video.
Why do things look good on TV? It's partially because they have good lighting... I've been in many TV studio's and they have camera's costing over $100,000 dollars but they have bright lights.
Of course, I can't understand why in a fancy resturant I can't see the food I'm eating yet in McDonalds I can see perfectly fine?
I've tried to develope a relationship with where I film as I stay out of the way. I move in for the shots I need and move out. I hide camera's as best as I can while balancing it with a good shot. So they know when I'm filming I'm not going to be in the way if I can help it.
From my perspective I would love to have a room of 500 watt lights but that's definately too much!
The true wedding video professionals are those who can accurately weigh good light verses intrusion, can make people feel confortable, try to blend with the crowd and hide themselves yet get the shots that they need.
The Amature is in everyone's face with the camera and lights and is in everyone's way and are not invited back...
I wish weddings were TV studio setups where everyone want's to be on camera...
I hope to someday get this people technique down as you must not only be a good videographer but good with people.
When I walk into the room my first glance is where do I place the camera's? The second is an assessement of how bad the lighting is going to be! It almost makes you want to be a still photographer. They have less equipment, have a light that only flashes verses our steady light, can easily get their shots and get out and people are less scared of them. Then they don't have to spend days editing after the wedding, they just develop the film and pick out the good pictures... Certainly still photography isn't easy but it seems much easier than videography with all we have to deal with!
Just my thoughts... Gary

: Hi all,
: I don't mean to sound too harsh, but I've got to tell someone what I saw last night. I was shooting a reception in a building that had many different halls. As always I went to the other events and stuck my head in the door to see what was going on. In one hall the videographer had the a very odd looking set-up. There were two guys with XL-1's, one handheld and one on a tripod at the corner of the dance floor. Nothing odd about that. It was the garter/bouquet stuff happening. Next to the guy with the tripod was a stand with a bar going across it and two HUGE lights on each side. These types of lights are sold at hardware stores for construction. It looked like there were 500w bulbs in each light. Am I the only one that thinks this is really intrusive? How many people go home saying 'I never want a videographer at my wedding - did you see those lights??!!' I can see how you want the best quality - and you definately don't want your demo to look dark, but jeez - do you think these guys tell the couples they meet with that there will be huge lights on the dance floor? And both cameras had lights too! Don't take this the wrong way if this sounds like something you do - but maybe think again about how you light the reception. We as a group need to be a little more considerate toward the guests and not think so much about what the gain setting is in our cameras. There has to be a better balance, don't you think?
: Joel

X-SMcD
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Apr 28, 2003, 10:03 AM

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Re: Scary.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

- some ceremonies last longer than my NRG battery belt

I'm no expert, but I think its time for a new cell pack!

X-Postal
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Apr 28, 2003, 11:32 AM

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True, but everyone starts somewhere...
: Little wonder that people come in without much idea. All the video mags in the UK this month have run stories along the lines of "So you've bought a camcorder? Why not shoot weddings with it?"

X-mikeb
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Apr 28, 2003, 11:42 AM

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Re: Scary.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

We get many outdoor receptions in the summer/fall and they will rent those white tents. I have saved my shots multiple times as it gets near sunset by having floodlamps in clamp fixtures to put in the inside top corners aimed up for a soft reflection off the tent material. Those construction halogens that you describe, Joel, put out a great quality of light...for a studio...but are ugly (orange could be spray painted black I suppose), hot, and potentially dangerous at a reception.
We do talk with clients beforehand about a need to compromise the romantic lighting at the reception with our camera's need for good light. I usually only need one point handheld lighting at the cake cutting table.

X-Marshall
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Apr 28, 2003, 2:28 PM

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Re: shooting from above [In reply to]	Can't Post

"If ever someone loses an earring or the bridesmaids are trying to do up the bussle in a dimly lit room, etc., I hussle right over and turn on that light. Suddenly, guests are much more appreciative of it."
I once had a groomsman lose his contact lens on the dance floor. I used my 30w light to illuminate the floor until he found it...in good condition! He was very, very thankful.
Marshall

X-Marshall
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Apr 28, 2003, 2:38 PM

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"The Amature is in everyone's face with the camera and lights and is in everyone's way and are not invited back... "
And the gist of this thread is that those idiots create an atmosphere of distrust for anyone who follows them. A church will clamp down on available camera locations and movement for ALL videographers because they had just ONE videographer who was brainless. A reception venue will impose restrictions for the same reason. All it takes is ONE, and it can ruin it for the rest of us. It is our responsibility now to "educate" the masses about what PROFESSIONAL behavior is all about.
My .02
Marshall

X-Scott_Brooks
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Apr 28, 2003, 2:46 PM

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This just isn't the same as having "work lights" from Home Depot. Not only that, if the officiant has no problems with it being tastefully done ... that's a different story.
What Joel relayed litterally pisses me off. It's those &*^%$* idiots that are absolutely ruining it for the rest of us. And even though some come here asking for help, there' hundreds mor that bought a camcorder and are off to make their fortune in life.
Bitter? You bet I am.

X-Scott_Brooks
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Apr 28, 2003, 2:52 PM

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: It almost makes you want to be a still photographer. They have less equipment, have a light that only flashes verses our steady light, can easily get their shots and get out and people are less scared of them. Then they don't have to spend days editing after the wedding, they just develop the film and pick out the good pictures... Certainly still photography isn't easy but it seems much easier than videography with all we have to deal with!
Which is exactly the reason I'm headed that direction. I have absolutely no intention of giving up video, but I have started putting together a business plan (as well as training) for photography. I have a pretty good idea of where I want to start and where I want to go with it.

X-Chris
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Apr 28, 2003, 3:17 PM

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Joel, You shave introduced yourself! That was me shooting!!!! [In reply to]	Can't Post

LOL... Just kidding! 500w omni fo rthe dance floor heavy diffusion paper and no more than 50w on cam at a time.
(Unless it's a Orthodox Russian or Jewish wedding where there are 300+ people than I need the lights.)
-chris